MAN IN BLACK
TRANSCRIPT / WRITTEN VERSION
MAN IN BLACK Q&A RECORDED ON 05/03/2024
IN CONVERSATION WITH DIRECTOR WANG BING (WB) AND PROF. CHRIS BERRY (CB), KING’S COLLEGE LONDON. TRANSLATION BY ANCHI LUE
CB: Wang Bing, thank you very much for agreeing to be interviewed after our screening of your really compelling and moving film, MAN IN BLACK. I’m going to start with the most obvious question, the one we have to ask, which is, was it your idea to get Wang Xilin to be naked, or was it his idea, and why is he naked?
WB: Initially, it was my idea to have Wang Xilin to appear naked on screen, and I chose the environment, the theatre where he would exhibit himself. The theatre is completely unrelated to his life. However, I wanted to have an environment where we can reconcile, not only the environment, but also his body and ‘he’ himself as an artist. So it was a visual form in the presentation.
The second reason we decided that Wang Xilin would be naked, is, as you know, he is 86 years old and he has had a very rich life experience. During his time in China, he was the victim of political persecution. Not only was he excluded from society, but he was also persecuted on a personal level, which means the destruction of the body. Presenting his naked body is a direct way to show the suffering.
CB: Thank you very much. When I watched MAN IN BLACK, I also find myself immediately thinking of your other films, including FENGMING, A CHINESE MEMOIR (2007), and there are a couple of reasons for that. One reason is that, MAN IN BLACK is also a film that is a kind of monologue with a lot of testimonies, as you were just saying, about injustices suffered after 1949. Could you say a little more about, why you are so interested in making films about this kind of experiences and this kind of history? It is also there, of course, in DEAD SOULS (2017) and BEAUTY LIVES IN FREEDOM (2018), for example.
WB: From the start, my focus has always been on the personal experience, the lives led in China over the last few decades, and how difficult their lives were. In fact, initially, the perspective is that of humanity, or from the person.
CB: Thank you. The second reason I thought of your film FENGMING, A CHINESE MEMOIR, when I saw MAN IN BLACK, was the cinematography. With both films, we have very striking, controlled cinematography. With FENGMING, A CHINESE MEMOIR, the camera tracks in slowly, slowly, slowly as she is speaking. In MAN IN BLACK, it’s the kind of circling movement around Wang Xilin. So I wanted to ask you to say a little bit more about why you chose that circling movement for MAN IN BLACK, and how you designed the cinematography?
WB: If Wang Xilin have lived in China, there would have been many different cinematic forms that I could choose from. However I wanted to explore his story, through different perspectives. For exemple, he got married at age 80, so there was a huge shift in his life. You can say that he had a second spring. His wife lives in Germany so he moved to Germany. While the film is taking place either in France or in Germany, I had a fewer choices in how I could narrate his life, or in the form that I would choose. In the end I chose to shoot the film in a theatre in Paris. Comparatively speaking, it’s an appropriate choice of a venue because theatre is where one performs, one tells different stories. So, once in the theatre it becomes then a performance. Having said that, what Wang Xilin was doing of course, wasn’t performing for an audience per se. He was telling his personal story through his body, with his words, and also through his music.
In the theatre, Wang Xilin’s body, his individuality becomes the main subject of the film, so why did we decide to shoot him in a circular manner, as you asked? While I worked with the French cinematographer, Caroline Champetier, we discussed together how we would approach the cinematography. In china, when you film an object or a vessel, you use this circling method or technique. We felt, this would be a very effective way to document, to describe in detail the subject matter. And this would allow us to have a very smooth rendition. The body then becomes this object, or becomes a vessel of stories to tell. The theatre of course, is also circular as you’ve seen in the film. So whether you film from up high or from down low, you capture the spherical form of the theatre. In terms of the individual and the space, this allowed for a very smooth rendition.
CB: Let me now ask a question about the sound design. In MAN IN BLACK, of course, Wang Xilin himself plays the piano, and his own music is laid over the film, and sometimes it’s almost so strong that we cannot hear his voice. I wanted to ask, if that was something that was decided before you filmed him, or if it was something you decided to do in the editing process, and also why you decided to use the music in that way.
WB: For the sound design, the choice of the music was initially my decision, and I worked very closely with the editor. We gave substantial thoughts to the use of music in the film. As you heard in the film, a lot of the music came from Wang Xilin himself, from his third symphony, his fourth symphony, his piano concerto. Wang Xilin was very prolific in terms of compositions and music. In terms of style, it was very different. We mostly used the third symphony to overlay the sound of the film. During the editing process, we worked very closely together with the editor, who is also very sensitive to music. It was very important for us to come to a joint decision, and to determine the role that the music would play in the film.
The different musical segments or the selection of the music was done in coordination with the editor, and I thought the editor did a fantastic job. When Wang Xilin speaks, and as you mentioned also, the music sometimes would drown out his voice, that was a joint decision made by myself and the editor. And you might ask why we decided this, because for us music is an essential part of the narrative. It isn’t just a supportive actor in the story, it is a crucial element of the film. So, through the different musical segments you hear in the film, the music plays an extremely important role.
CB: I went to see the screening of MAN IN BLACK in London and I noticed that you were surrounded by young Chinese people from the audience after the film. I’ve heard from people who attended screenings of your film elsewhere, that there are lots of young Chinese people who are very excited about the film, and in the audience. I wonder if you could say something about why you think, young people are so interested in your films these days, young Chinese people, and what kind of questions are they asking you?
WB: Personally, I consider myself an ordinary documentary filmmaker. I honestly don’t know how to talk about my work or my personal views. For a very long time, I worked on my own, I have very little interaction with other people. For me, it’s very challenging to talk about the meaning of art, or the meaning of my films, or the role that my films play in contemporary life in terms of history, politics or economy. To be honest, I’m incapable of talking about that. I think I lack the wisdom to explore these issues, If I can speak frankly.
Having said that, I am of course quite willing to share my thoughts. However, I sometimes think that public perception may interpret my views as being quite ignorant. In my opinion, I think we are experiencing the second time that China is coming closer to the world. The youth of China are travelling abroad to study, to experience life, to discover different cultures, and they want to learn about what is happening outside of China. Over the last hundred years, we have seen a complex development in China. What we can say perhaps from a Chinese perspective, the process of modernisation. And in this process, we have seen two ideological camps. One that has embraced the idea of capitalism and the other that of communism. So the choice is clear. We have chosen authoritarianism. Clearly over the last few decades or even the last hundred years, we’ve seen tremendous amount of volatility in China. People were impoverished, not only in terms of material goods, but also emotionally or spiritually. People like Wang Xilin (and He Fengming) were victims of political persecution. But there were so many other people who in the amidst of these changes, their destinies were formed. So in my films, I try to explore these issues. The artist of today, like the artist of the beginning of the last century, are hovering in different corners, so to speak.
So these young people who live and study in Europe, come to see my films. Maybe they themselves don’t clearly know what they are looking for in my films. But I think there is a commonality, that everyone is trying to find the possibility to break away from old moulds or old ways of living. It’s obviously very difficult to watch my films in China, it’s very difficult to get access to my films, so they can watch them in France or Germany … But to be frank, it’s very difficult to know what they are thinking. I think that reading other people’s minds is an extremely difficult task, and it is an ability that I do not embody. So I honestly don’t know what they are looking for in my films.
I believe, Chinese people of our generation have all inherited a historical legacy. On our shoulders, we carry the burdens of the past. As artists, when we create, we are really looking to establish a certain understanding with our subjects. Chinese artists are trying to learn, to absorb, from a western artist in terms of form, language and methodology. This learning process is a long-term one, and we are in the process of changing the original of our earlier forms of art and creation. The reason for this failure, or for the vain efforts, is that in terms of art form or artist expression, although we absorb a lot from the West, we are still struggling with this pursuit of what I call a modern civilisation. From an Eastern perspective, I think everyone is struggling with this. There is a tremendous amount of desire to create what is our modern civilisation. That’s why our efforts have been in vain. The real issue, as I see it, lies in the modern political system. I think that for the last hundred years, the majority of people have been ignorant or have ignored this fact.
CB: Thank you very much. It’s a really great honour to hear your answers to my questions, and to have this opportunity to see your film. You said that people in China have been learning from the West for over a hundred years, I think we are also learning from China. Thank you very much indeed.
WB: I just want to add one last point. Personally speaking, I am an artist, and it is not that I don’t want to discuss certain issues or voice certain issues, but I feel that I don’t have the wisdom or knowledge to discuss politics. I am an artist first and foremost.
CB: Thank you very much.
WB: Bye bye.
END