BLUE ISLAND
Winner Best International Feature, HotDOCS Canadian International Documentary Festival 2022
TRANSCRIPT / WRITTEN VERSION
BLUE ISLAND Q&A RECORDED ON 17/02/2023
IN CONVERSATION WITH DIRECTOR CHAN TZE WOON (CTW) AND PROF. CHRIS BERRY (CB), KING’S COLLEGE LONDON
CB: Welcome everybody! My name is Chris Berry from King’s College, London, and I’m very pleased to be having this conversation with Chan Tze Woon, the director of BLUE ISLAND for the East Asia Film Festival Ireland. Tze-woon, thank you so much for giving us your time, we are very grateful.
CTW: Thank you so much for inviting me.
CB: I’d like to start out by asking you a bit about the transition from your earlier film to this film, BLUE ISLAND. I’m thinking that in the last few years, there were a number of Hong Kong documentaries, really strong powerful documentaries, which were very much sitting us in the middle of the action. With YELLOWING, your film on the Umbrella Movement from 2016, and more recently films on the protest movements from 2019 like, INSIDE THE RED BRICK WALL (dir. Hong Kong Documentary Filmmakers, 2020) and also REVOLUTION OF OUR TIMES (dir. Kiwi Chow, 2021).
All of those films were very much on the ground in the action, sort of almost immersive documentaries in many ways. And this is a break from that, and moving in another direction. With BLUE ISLAND, we have something that is, I guess we could say, a kind of essay film.
I’m wondering, when and why you decided you wanted to make that move.
CTW: I started working on this project in 2017, right before the Anti-extradition Law Bill movement. Somehow at that time, there were no street protests and I was thinking about, ‘Okay, how to tell the Hong Kong story after YELLOWING?’.
YELLOWING is my first film, it’s about the Umbrella Movement, and I follow some young protagonists. They participate in the Occupy Movement. It is like inviting the audience to go to the Occupy movement, and then to follow these young protagonists. So, in a way what you’re saying is similar to the street protest things. When I started this project, BLUE ISLAND in 2017, there were no street protests. And I really wanted to look into our history as a Hong Konger. At that time I remembered my first film, and in the final scene, I asked my young protagonist the question: ‘Do you still believe in what you believed in 20 years later?’
So somehow, this is the question I’ve also been asking myself. I know that we are not the first ones who experienced those big protests and that afterwards, we went back to a normal life. So I tried to find some former protagonists who had also experienced something big, important in the past, and I asked them the following question, ‘Do you still believe in what you believed in a long time ago?’ So that’s how the project started.
Then I picked three parts of Hong Kong's history that I find quite important, so that we can know more, learn about ourselves from the history of the cultural revolution when people fled from China to Hong Kong, and from the 1967 Patriotic Riots, and also from 1989 the Tiananmen Square massacre. So I’ve picked these important events in the Hong Kong history, and I know that when we get into this history, we will be talking about what is Hong Kong. That’s how the film started.
When I started this film, I had no idea that Hong Kong will have such a big protest in 2019. And in fact, I also filmed some street protests in 2019 but I didn’t manage to make a film from this footage. I was also thinking about that very good documentary, REVOLUTION OF OUR TIMES. So I think my film tries to use another perspective to look into our history, especially in this special time in Hong Kong, because in just a few years Hong Kong has changed so fast. It seems, I’m not very familiar with this Hong Kong anymore. So I keep asking the question: ’What is Hong Kong?'. Especially for people who have lost freedom, for people who have moved somewhere else. I think it is a very important question to ask. I hope that this film can bring more discussion about this.
CB: Yes, thank you. I mean, certainly it’s a very different kind of feeling and a different kind of mood to have this kind of contemplative filmmaking. And I think in case audience members haven’t picked up on it, the ‘blue' in BLUE ISLAND in the Chinese original title, means ‘blue’ in the sense of melancholy, it’s not about the colour. And I think that is very much on this kind of tone of the film. So I mean after, obviously the events of 2018/2019 happened, you also made an additional decision not just to reflect on the past but this idea of bringing the two generations together – and I think this is the stroke of genius of the film to be honest with you, the thing I found really powerful and for me very emotional to what when I was watching the film. First, having the younger people who have been involved in the recent events, reenact what their predecessors were involved with. But then also, having them meet and filming the meetings. And I wonder, if you could tell me a bit more about why you wanted to do that, or how you got that idea. And how you handled them.
CTW: I think it is also very new to me as a documentary filmmaker. When I started, I wasn't very clear about how I can do the reenactment. Because when you’re talking about documentary reenactment, the audience and also my producer think that it won’t be very good because they have this impression in one way or another about documentary reenactment. I also find very difficult to explain my ideas. But I think it became clearer after 2019 when the young generations, and everyone of us actually had our own experience of the 2019 protest. Some of them are facing charges, they may lost their freedom. Some of them are thinking they might have to leave Hong Kong for somewhere else. And some of them after the very big protests realised, they didn’t achieve anything, so they feel very depressed. So in a way, all of Hong Kong is experiencing this kind of experience now. I find it very interesting that the cast can have some linkage, can relate to the story that I tell about history.
It was also after 2019 that I did a lot of pitching about the film, and got the money to do the reenactment, and I started to do the casting at the beginning of 2020. And everyone came because at the time, there were no street protests in Hong Kong happening. So they came to tell me about their experience like the protagonist Calvin who at that time was waiting for trial because he was arrested in 2019. And actually, after he participated in this production, he was sentenced last year for 35 months because of rioting.
I think we all have our own personal stories. And they are non-professional actors and they are acting, but they can’t act too much. But I found that when they are acting, this creates some layer for us. The layer is about how we can connect with each other with our own experience, but at the same time, when we go into these stories, we have so many differences in our political stands, in our identity. So you can see the concept, but also you can see the connection and I hope that by bringing them together, you can see the layer and at the same time we can create some thinking about the question I asked before ‘What is Hong Kong?’, by putting the history together. I think that’s how we started .
CB: So how did it go when you were actually filming it? I mean, did you start to film them when they met, when the older generation and the younger generation meet? Did you film that from the very first time they met? Or did they have some meetings before and then you started filming them? How did you handle it? Because it’s obviously a very complicated thing to do.
CTW: Yes, it is. We have three parts of history, and I do each part quite differently. For example, for the part with the swimmer who fled China for Hong Kong, I arranged a meeting with the two young actors – the couple who meets with the swimmer and his wife. When they meet together, they are asking questions about how they fled to Hong Kong and their relationship, so somehow, I know they can have a conversation.
But for the part which is about the ’67 Riots with Calvin, I was actually quite worried that we’d put them together, because they are so different, different with their political stands… You know for the part about the ’67 Riots, the protagonist is actually quite pro-China, and Calvin is talking about democracy or even independence. So I’m quite worried to put them together and whether they can talk, so I left this part for the reenactment.
It’s different in the cultural revolution part. There is a group of people and I put them together. Actually, they have already met a few times. The conversation is not scripted so they randomly have the conversation under the reenactment of the cultural revolution scene. And they talk about their experiences in the ‘70s. But for the prison, I did the prison scenes because both had to experience the prison, the ’67 Riots in prison, and Calvin also has the projection that he will be sentenced in the near future. So somehow, when they are put together, the prison becomes their projection, they each have their own experience. So when they start their conversation, there’re more things to discuss about their experience in prison and their political stands. You can see the debate and so this is quite random. Yeah, but this is how it happened.
CB: It works really well and of course, you know the scene in the prison is really, as an audience member, you feel the tension and the emotion and presumably for Raymond because he’s remembering, and then for Calvin as you say, because he’s projecting what might happen to him in the near future and indeed now, he has happened to him.
What I've heard, I’m not sure if it’s true, but I’ve heard that for some people the inclusion of 1967 has been controversial. And you know, with the other historical moments, the cultural revolution exodus to Hong Kong, also 1989 and Tiananmen, it’s clear that it’s all critical of or around criticism of the Beijing government. But with 1967, Raymond is somebody who is aligned with the Beijing government and of course as you just said, he says very clearly in both the reenactment but also today, ‘I am Chinese’, whereas Calvin is saying, ‘I am a Hong Konger’ – right?
And I’m wondering whether, what made you decide you really needed 1967 as well as the other episodes and the other times. And also how you’ve dealt with people saying, or what your answer would be to people who say, ‘You shouldn’t be including that because Raymond is a pro-Beijing character and so on’.
CTW: I think the ’67 Riots are part of Hong Kong history, which is very important when we discuss our own identity or what Hong Kong is. For me, when I put history together, it’s not because we find an ‘echo side’ between the two, but because we are also asking questions about how Hong Kong has changed. And I find it’s quite important that when you put everything together, 67, 89 and the cultural revolution, there is something that, as you know, cannot be compared. Like with Calvin the young protestor, but also with Raymond the rioter of 1967, when you put them together, we keep asking questions and they will have to debate.
So, this is how I find that we can show the complexity as a Hong Konger. It is in the Hong Kong history but at the same time, there’s so much difference. And for me there are still things that I particularly wanted to discuss like, the patriotic thoughts in 1967 compared to the patriotic thoughts in 1989, or even in 2008 the Sichuan earthquake in China. At that time the Hong Kong identity as a Chinese identity is the highest, but in 2019 it changed. More people are advocating for Hong Kong independence. So, when you put together, it’s not just to compare between 2019 and the 1967 riots, but also to talk about the patriotic thoughts, or the Hong Kong-China relations, or even more about how many people moved away from Hong Kong to somewhere else after the 1967 Riots.
And also there were some immigrants in 89 but not today. And they have also experienced some trials and prison. I think that it’s not just talking about the ‘echo’ but that once [they are] put together, we create a lot of discussions and reflection about patriotic thoughts, about the Hong Kong-China relations, about our personal experience in the face of trials. This is what I think brings another perspective to this film, which can show the complexity of the history of Hong Kong.
CB: Yes, I really agree with you and I think that’s it’s the inclusion of 1967 that suddenly makes it much more complex and for me as a viewer when that episode happens, then I start going back to some of the other episodes in my mind, and start rethinking them and being aware of the sort of things you’re saying like, you know, the Sichuan earthquake period as a period when Hong Kong is felt very very strongly Chinese, and also Tiananmen. And not equating these things completely, being aware that they each of them has their own distinctive valence or whatever you want to say, I also wanted to ask you about fundraising.
We become aware at the end of the film that this is a film that was crowdfunded in many ways. Was it very hard to raise the funds for the film?
CTW: Yes it was very hard, especially up to 2019. Back then, we didn’t have any budget but we started filming. In fact, it’s how documentaries work. They start with some filming, get some footage and try to add a teaser and then go for pitching. So before 2019, it was very difficult. But in 2019 when I was pitching the project internationally, people and audience started saying that they wanted a Hong Kong project. So I took some advantage from that. Actually, I can’t say too much but at that time it was right before the National Security Law, and we said we were making a documentary to explore the long history of Hong Kong, and how it changed and how it became today’s Hong Kong.
So it was difficult for me too, as a filmmaker, because it was the first time, and also it’s not easy to tell the story before your film is complete. But we did the pitch for a month and it achieved more than our expectations. But we can’t go through this experience again because the situation in Hong Kong today is very different.
CB: Right. So, could you tell us a bit more about that in general? Now we are in a post National Security Law environment. What does that mean for indy independent filmmakers like you?
CTW: From my experience, my first feature documentary, YELLOWING about the Umbrella movement, passed the censorship before the national security law in 2016, so it was easier. We could also rent privately some cinemas to screen the film. And there was one commercial cinema venue which showed the film. So when I started BLUE ISLAND, I had this experience and thought I could do it again. But after 2019, after the last national security law is enforced in 2020, and also in 2021, the film censorship policy changed. They put the national security into consideration so many of the films cannot get approval, and so they cannot be shown properly in Hong Kong. There are many documentaries related to educational film funding, and even the documentary film festival which disappeared. For the authority, documentaries is something they don’t want to see too much. So this is what we are now facing.
But as an independent filmmaker, I’m quite optimistic because in the past we always said like ‘Okay, we can’t complete this film, we can’t make this film because we don’t have money, we don’t have the budget.’ But nowadays, it’s more than that. It’s not talking about the production aspect in particular, it’s more about what we experience in 2019, and this moment in Hong Kong is something very big. So maybe you won’t see a film, I mean for independent filmmaking, which is a very fine and big film, but you can see the filmmaker is doing a film because he really wanted to do it, and to capture the moment of Hong Kong. I think it’s not only BLUE ISLAND, REVOLUTION OF OUR TIMES but there are quite a lot of young filmmakers nowadays, doing films and trying to tell the real Hong Kong story.
CB: That’s really encouraging and I’m really hoping we get to see those soon. And what are you working on now?
CTW: I have some ideas but I can’t say too much. I’m still based in Hong Kong so the story is a Hong Kong story…
CB: So you’re going to stay there and work there as much as you can.
CTW: Yeah, I’ll try to stay as long as I can (here’s my cat!). This is what I say, as a documentary filmmaker, I really want to stay in Hong Kong especially in this moment. There are no street protests anymore but there are many people who are suffering, and lost freedom and they are struggling so somehow it becomes my story, and I really want to keep making films in Hong Kong.
CB: So maybe my final question then is, to turn the question back to you. At this moment, what is Hong Kong to you?
CTW: Ah, very difficult to say! I think I cannot tell, I can’t answer the question actually in the film. At the end we putted around forty faces together. Some of them are facing trials now and lost freedom, and I think it is not only my home, the place I grew up but it is more about Hong Kong, the place where so many people are sacrificing, devoting themselves. So the answer is not very concrete but I hope the final scene in the film, where you can see the faces, somehow can answer the question.
CB: Yes, I mean there are many many moving moments in the film amongst them, the most moving ones are the ones where people struggle to answer that question at the moment. And maybe that’s also the mood that the film captures and the need to think about it, but the difficulty of coming up with an answer.
Thank you very much. We look forward to your next film. Thank you.
CTW: Thank you. Thank you.
END
